Dread Knights

Discuss strategies of warbarons

Re: Dread Knights

Postby magian » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:41 pm

Well this has been a very moderate and reasonable discussion about slight changes to the dreadknight, but I'm going to go in a totally different direction. This is a hero who's current powers and role aren't a very good fit for a dark knight type.

The way I see it, evil is a shortcut to power. Evil folks are all about instant gratification. They want it all, they want it now and they don't care who they need to crush to get it. It is the good guys who struggle to master their skills. Evil fantasy types sell their souls and sacrifice innocents in unholy rituals for their evil powers. If you look at it from this angle, then you'll see that the dread knight and paladin are backwards. It is the DK that should have the advantage in the early game, and the paladin should have the greater potential. The paladin can have high intelligence, why not let him use it?

If the dreadknight starts with a better stack bonus than the paladin, but the paladin is the superior ruin hunter, then both classes have clear strengths, and roles to play.

But never forget that the dread knight is supremely evil, and slightly mysterious. What lies beneath that dark suit of armor anyway? Is he human or is something much more horrific?

Here are a few Ideas to give the DK some character:

Dark Pact> the DK has sworn to the infernal powers that he will spill the blood of 100000000000 innocents (he's an ambitious guy). Whenever he razes a city on capture, he gains +1 chaos.

or

Immortality> the DK doesn't die like normal folks. When he is 'killed', he drops items as normal, but he re-appears in the capitol after a certain number of turns. 1st death- 1 turn, 2nd death 2 turns, and so on.

I know, crazy ideas are just how my mind works. :mrgreen:
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby Argammon » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:54 am

Great ideas imo! :twisted:
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby magian » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:16 pm

Thanks man! That is always nice to hear. 8-)
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby piranha » Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:50 pm

The raze idea is quite thematic and fun. I'll write that down :-).
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby KGB » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:58 pm

The DK raze + gain Chaos (or other skill) is something that should be part of a quest system rather than an automatic skill. Other heroes could have other quests / rewards.

The game *really* needs a quest system or something very similar to help differentiate the heroes more. This would provide another way to gain XP and help give heroes who aren't always on the front lines something else to do.

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Re: Dread Knights

Postby magian » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:25 am

Agreed, quests were one of the best things about Warlords 3. I would love to see a warbarons quest system.

The idea of hero class specific quests sounds excellent. Certain quests (like raze a city) could be shared by a few hero types (I'm thinking DK and Barb for that one).

Some ideas that leap to mind..

Paladin > Search a (specific) ruin, visit a temple.
Dreadknight > Raze a city.
Assassin > Kill a hero.
Barbarian > pillage X gold.
Ranger > Hunt some orc. :lol:
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby piranha » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:49 pm

We have this trigger system (which is only available on scenario maps and not normal / ladder maps) that allows you to create quests. At least the way we think of quests. Perhaps you need to explain what you mean by quests.
When I think quests I imagine that you would get a task like go to other side of map to collect a pergament and return for example which seems very odd in this type of game. Which hero has time to wander around for 10 - 12 turns.

The idea magian describes seems better to me, that each hero type have something the he can do to receive extra points.
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby magian » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:06 pm

Piranha, I don't want to tell you what to do, but you really should try playing Warlords 3. I mean those guys were doing exactly what you are doing, trying to take warlords 2 to the next level. Not everything in Warlords 3 was perfect, but they had some really good ideas. The questing system they devised was very fun and added a whole other dimension to the game.

But, yeah, class specific quests, or just restricting certain quests to certain classes, would be good too.
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Re: Dread Knights

Postby KGB » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:05 pm

Piranha,

The trigger system is definitely interesting and you've added a lot to it since it first started. But it has the following drawbacks:

1) They can only be used in Scenario games which really limits their value.
2) The map maker must manually create every last trigger condition in the game. In other words, there is a LOT of work to do for the map maker in creating lots of triggers. As you add more trigger conditions, map makers must remember to go back and take advantage of them (new rewards, new options etc) which puts more work on the map makers to continually update the map.
3) The triggers are static. In other words always the same since they are fixed. This means they are exercises in memorization for players to know what's where.
4) The triggers can be completed by ANY unit. In other words, no heroes are required.

I think they are great for making custom scenarios where you want to do things like activate AI's, turn cities into City States etc. Cool stuff like that is exactly what triggers are for (Warlords IV used a mechanism much like this to do these same type of global things).


What we are looking for is a quest system that is hero based, non-static and where the game does all the work so that as you guys add new things they get automatically included in every game.

If you recall, Warlords 2 had a very basic quest system. A hero visited a temple and was able to obtain a quest. The drawbacks were: The quest might be nearby or might be on the far side of the map. There was only 1 quest per side (not per hero) at a time. You had to visit a temple to get one (which meant being near temples was huge). You could not abandon the quest other than killing the hero who had it. The reward was handed out immediately (no need to return to get your reward)

DLR improved this by changing it so you only needed to visit one of your cities to get a quest (no more temple dependency). You could select a quest level (easy, medium, hard) that was based in large part by how far away the quest was / how hard it was to complete. You could abandon quests (with a penalty of turns before you got a new one). Still, there was only 1 quest per side and the quests and rewards were not specific to the heroes in any way.


I'd suggest using some of what DLR did and improve on that over several versions of the game. What I'd like to see initially is:

1) A hero can get a quest in any friendly city (yours or teammate).
2) Can select easy or medium (using the DLR model of city wall level of 6 or better needed for medium quests).
3) One quest per side (later potentially 1 per hero).
4) When possible quest is hero specific.
5) Give the player a choice of 2 quests from the list below

Examples of Easy Quests:
1) Capture a city (within 15 map squares of the hero location in any direction. No more than 2 defenders in the city)
2) Capture a site (Within 15 map squares)
3) Kill a specific unit type based on hero (for example 1 Eagle by a Ranger. At least 1 unit of that type must be within 15 squares of the hero)
4) Capture a tower (within 15 map squares)
5) Bless at nearby temple (Temple within 15 squares. UL temple for Pally/Ranger/Assassin, Strength temple for Barb/DK, Move temple for Valk/HL might make for nice hero restrictions)
6) Search a L1 ruin (within 15 map squares)
7) Rebuild a city (within 15 map squares, max cost 600 gold)

In some cases it may be possible there is NO east quest of any kind in which case the hero can't get one.

Examples of Medium Quests:
1) Capture a city (12-35 map squares from hero location in any direction. At least 3+ defenders in the city)
2) Raze a city (same parameters as Capture a city)
3) Kill multiple enemy units (from any side, any type of units counts. The number should be between 7-15).
4) Search a L2 ruin (within 30 map squares) or L3 ruin (within 20 map squares)
5) Kill an enemy hero (within 20 map squares)
6) Capture a Tower (12-35 map squares. At least 4+ defenders in the tower)

The rewards get handed out immediately. No need to return to get them. Easy rewards should be very small like 100-300 gold, A single ally (like 1 Pegasi type thing. Use different units than the current allies from ruins/hero offers), 2 points of hero skills. Medium rewards would be better stuff like 300-700 gold, a good L1 item or a L2 item, 2-4 allies (4 if they are 2 turn units, 3 if they are 3 turn units or 2 if they are 4 turn units. So 2 Mammoths or 3 Pegasi or 4 Wizards type thing), 1 point of hero based skill (so Chaos for a DK, Leader for a Pally etc. This reward might only happen for a specific quest type such as raze city for a DK)

In addition to the reward, the hero gets XP for completing the quest. Maybe 250 XP for an easy quest and 750 XP for a medium quest.

This is an example of what we are talking about.

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Re: Dread Knights

Postby Moonknight » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:24 am

I created a new "Quests (revisited)" thread in the Wish List section since it might get lost under this Dread Knights strategy discussion :lol:

Let's continue discussion there so others that want to join on the topic can!
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