Best Non-Hero Stacks

Discuss strategies of warbarons

Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby tabanli » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:45 pm

LUXURY CLASS
Red Dragon-Great Archon-6 Demons
I think this is the ultimate non-hero stack out there. They are all flyers so you may stay away from Grass and avoid Elephants. You may substitute a demon with a Green Dragon for speed or Ghost for Orc protection. Still vulnerable to ambush, but this is a true bunker buster and hero slayer. Very expansive and slowly build however deadly. You need to buy Red Dragon in one city, Great Archon at another and Demons in 3 cities.

FULL SIZE
Pegasi-Archon-6 Demon
This is one size smaller, cheaper but still deadly. You may again substitute a Ghost or a Green Dragon for a demon.

SPORT SIZE
Pegasi -7 Demon
You may built this relatively faster than the others. Lack of archon makes you vulnerable to Super Hero's, +18 Valkyrie or Dread Knight with an item. However most hero stacks has land units so you may cleverly avoid them in some maps.

For this mega stacks, you need a large map with good resources or you need to reach a balanced middle game. One drawback is they take long time to build and take much resources. So while you are building this, you may get invaded by fast heroes.
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby KGB » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:42 am

One thing to be aware of: These stacks are all *very* vulnerable to a Ranger. The Archon does not counter Anti-Air and a Ranger can easily get +15 group AA allowing a Ranger + Eagles to devastate these stacks for a fraction of the investment of time and money.

There is also a lot to be said for switching Demons with Green Dragons. The 40/3 vs 55/2 is closer than it looks in battle. Plus as both stacks get boosted by bless/morale the final 55/3 vs 70/2 is almost dead even. Given the added movement of the Greens and the fact that losing 1 Green doesn't wreck your attack value (as it does when you start losing Demons) this could well be the better option if time/money is not an issue (Green stack takes longer than Demon stack to build).

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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby Chazar » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:30 am

KGB wrote:One thing to be aware of: These stacks are all *very* vulnerable to a Ranger. The Archon does not counter Anti-Air and a Ranger can easily get +15 group AA allowing a Ranger + Eagles to devastate these stacks for a fraction of the investment of time and money.

Um, 7 Eagles and a Pranger with +15 AntiAir just kills 4 demons in average against the best of those Stacks. That's 14 production turns plus hero versus 12 production turns - not exactly a good deal.
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby KGB » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:34 pm

Chazar,

It's a very good deal if it saves your cities from being devastated from a flying stack! It's also a good deal in the fact that once the Demons are lost, the stack becomes very weak. The remaining 2-3 Demons are suddenly only fighting at 35 instead of 65 strength and can be killed much easier by just Hv Inf defenders in a city. You can also substitute in Pegasi/RD instead of Ranger if you don't want to use up a hero (less damage but far easier to replace).

Also in terms of investment, Eagles are cheap compared to the cost of Demon investment (you can buy 3 Eagle cities for 1 Demon city).

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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby tabanli » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:36 pm

I think all the non-hero stacks will be vulnerable to something. So it all depends on what your opponent has and what you can afford. If you want an all around, the most versatile stack, it would combine the best of all the bonus units. Something like

Catapult-Red Dragon-Great Archon-Devil-Unicorn-Mammoth-Medusa-Crusader

WHO DOES THAT ???
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby tabanli » Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:44 pm

So next, I would like to devote to Battering Ram- Elephant stacks. I really like them a lot with 16 speed.

Battering Ram-Elephant-6 Scorpion on grass
Battering Ram-Mammoth-6 Scorpion on snow

Go on the grass, avoid the heavy loaded front defense cities, hit and raze the back cities. You may substitute a Scorpion with a Crusader-Yeti for ambush protection

Battering Ram-Elephant-6 Heavy Cavalary (substitute a few Giant/Crusader/Yeti) on Grass
Battering Ram-Mammoth-6Yeti on Snow

These are great for deep city invasion. You can pass through the defense and target the back cities where the production is. Plunder and raze and continue. You won't loose power by loosing a member like the case with the scorpions.
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby KGB » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:36 pm

Tabanli,

Yes, I am a BIG fan of Elephant stacks. They are basically mobile fortresses that still provide morale bonus's against Devils. The extra movement is also great. However I much prefer a Unicorn over a Ram. I get far more use out of the negate of terrain (esp useful against all those Lt/Hv Calv that might otherwise damage your Scorpions or those pesky Spiders/Minotaurs/Gryphons that defend cities) and the negating of 3 morale bonus. The Unicorn even allows fast travel over a few woods squares that might otherwise slow down or prevent the Elephant from reaching open terrain.

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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby smursh » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:35 am

Although more expensive replacing the demons with GD makes your stack more robust. If attacked by for example an eagle/pegasus stack you will lose 2-3 demons. Now instead of 6 you have 4. Another attack, and losses mount. Add the speed advantage, 3 hits making up for strength and the stack has more staying power.
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby tabanli » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:47 pm

I also like the Green Dragons version, I think GD is a great deal. However it is an extra investment (1450 vs 1800), can you really afford it? I often get a ghost from ruins, that also makes practical substitution.

With the unicorn, it offers great benefits but I could hardly get myself to buy one for 1100, and if I see Gryphons and Spiders in a city, I just pass them and go to low def cities. And If I get hit by Heavy Cavalry and Pikeman on the road, well it's just too bad.

I think a decent and somewhat popular Ranger-Barbarian stack would have good chances to kill flyer non-hero super stacks whether with GD or Demons. A decent Ranger-Barbarian stack is prepared primarily anti-ambush but it would work as anti-air as well. Similar in terms of bonus units.

Ranger-Red Dragon-Great Archon-Devil-Barbarian(58 strength)+3 fast meat unit (crusader-GD-HC-Gryphon-Unicorn). If the flyer stack is on the mountains and there is danger, you may drop land units (primarily the Devil), get the eagles to face the destructing force. Ranger gives move bonus so your Barbarian has 18 moves. You may catch them eventually.

The more I think about it, that Ranger-Barbarian stack is probably the best all around defender. It doesn't have a huge destructive force +18 leadership, -18 chaos nor 40% group ambush. However it has decent chances to stop any given army.
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Re: Best Non-Hero Stacks

Postby tabanli » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:16 pm

How does a good slow-rider, front-line close combat non-hero stack look like? I would say something like

Moral Bonus Unit+Catapult+Medusa+Spiders+Land attack protectors. So pegasi-red-elephant-unicorn-heavy cavalry or even pikemans may go with that stack.

For though neutrals with Red Dragon in it, you may need a Devil instead of land attack protectors.
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