My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Discuss strategies of warbarons

My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby tabanli » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:17 pm

We all know that nobody takes down the neutrals like a Valkyrie. But for other middle game considerations, people opt for other heroes to start with, mostly a Barbarian. However after loosing my Barbarian to a Heavy infantry in +5 city AGAIN and watching my partner loosing it to an Eagle on +10 city I finally decided that Barbarian isn't a great starting hero. I would call him a high risk high return starting hero.

1) He is relatively slow (14 moves)
2) He is relatively dumb (90 intelligence)
3) Can't search ruins (low undead lore)
4) Can't help other troops (no stack bonus)

As a high risk high return hero, if you can get him to level 2, it pays off greatly afterwards. But you may loose him on the way or loose most of your starting troops. On average, he has to capture 4 cities to level up as opposed to 3 cities for most other heroes. Even if his chances are 90% each time, this is still a considerable risk. He either goes on front and take the risk or watch the starting troops parish.

Of course it all depends on the map and starting troops. I may still choose him if I can accompany him with a battering ram or maybe with a Yeti early in the game. But in large maps or rich maps, I just gather enough gold and wait for a level 2 hero offer and get my 44 Strength barbarian that way. Call me lazy. Sometimes I accept level 1 Barbarian as a second hero if I have enough stack bonus units.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby magian » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:50 pm

We all know what now?! Sure, a Valkyrie gives a nice stack boost, but the Barbarian can take cities on his own. He is also better at searching ruins due to his extra wound.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby Moonknight » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:15 am

Don't forget that the Barbarian gets 3 hits in a ruin to start off with. A couple of scouts with him in level 1's and you're good to go.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby KGB » Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:36 am

Plus if the Barbarian is 90% to take a city he is a guaranteed win. No risk at all :)

I always put a Lt Inf/Scout with him when attacking those Hv Inf/Eagle cities. Just one of those units puts him over 90% most of the times and thus a guaranteed winner.

I never ever talk a Valkrie. I can't remember the last time I took one. If I am not taking a Barb I am taking an Assassin or specialized hero like a HL on the Stratego map.

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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby tabanli » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:24 pm

With the Crusader warding and now Paladin offering group warding, I don't have stomach for an Assassin start anymore. II have a few games that I started before the new version and I am enjoying the last of the glory days of Assasin.

Ranger or Paladin + Mammoth + Crusader and how am I going to assasin?
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby KGB » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:27 pm

Not saying I've done it, but I have seen players increase Assassins personal ambush to 100% at L3. At that point he conquers all cities with 1 defender on his own (can be flying by then too). Better neutral grabber than a Barb at L3.

Rest of your armies can be expanding elsewhere. High level heroes can be gotten quickly to make up for fact Assassin is being used as a neutral grabber.

Also not as many players as you think take Ambush. And Assassin quickly gets really high city Chaos values for attacking/defending in cities.

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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby Zaque » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:21 am

I sometimes take the Barbarian as my second hero if I get the offer for a lvl 2 one "early" in the game and at the right city. The Valkrie is good as a secondary hero in a stack, like with the Dreadknight, if you are going to be attacking cities mostly.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby tabanli » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:45 pm

Notes on Valkyrie:
I think Valkyrie works only on large maps and only one on one games and maybe two by two. I often watch sadly, people making towers to protect their Valkyrie. I mean if you choose a Valkyrie as your primary hero, get an elephant/red dragon and a Great Archon. You may be relatively safe only after that.

On small maps you don't have time to train many power units and ally offerings are unpredictable. But I may still take a Valkie if she comes with an Archon. On team games, everybody has scouts and see each others turf. So in less than 10 turns, your Valkyrie will be a sitting duck.

Additional Notes on Barbarian:
Funny thing is after I wrote this, I have very bad starting units so I was forced to choose a Barbarian as my first hero and guess what. Right before I would level up, I got slain to an elf.

Notes on Assassin:
When I got a level 2 hero offering with a Medusa ally or I already made Medusa production and got a hero offering at the right place, I immediately consider an Assassin. With %16 to %32 group assassin my medusa will take all the one defender cities and I will soon have %97 chance to kill Solo Super Barbarians. So I don't think anybody needs a %100 personal Assassin.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby KGB » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:53 pm

tabanli wrote:Notes on Valkyrie:
I think Valkyrie works only on large maps and only one on one games and maybe two by two. I often watch sadly, people making towers to protect their Valkyrie. I mean if you choose a Valkyrie as your primary hero, get an elephant/red dragon and a Great Archon. You may be relatively safe only after that.


Valkrie works *only* when you get a L4+ hero. She can be taken for an immediate +14 attack bonus which can swing a lot of battles. Of course this requires short distances to the target (enemy stack or city) so she can leave the safety of her own city and get an immediate kill. This is the absolute only time I ever take one.

tabanli wrote:Notes on Assassin:
When I got a level 2 hero offering with a Medusa ally or I already made Medusa production and got a hero offering at the right place, I immediately consider an Assassin. With %16 to %32 group assassin my medusa will take all the one defender cities and I will soon have %97 chance to kill Solo Super Barbarians. So I don't think anybody needs a %100 personal Assassin.


Not sure what you mean by no one needs 100% personal Assassin. Do you mean:

A) There is no reason to increase the Assassins personal ambush to 100.
B) No unit should be able to reach 100%.

For (A), the reason to do this with the Assassin is that it doesn't require a Medusa (big investment for production, may not get as an ally, slow moving). More importantly, those Solo Super Barbarians tend to be flying/waterwalking and the Medusa can't reach them. There is nothing like sending out a L3 flying Assassin with 100% Ambush to knife the big guy in the back :twisted:
For (B), the reason for needing 100+% (yes, you can exceed 100%) is for overcoming Warding.

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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby SCIkick » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:37 am

Barbarians are way too powerful.

I'm not going to debate, that's my vote.
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