My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Discuss strategies of warbarons

Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby Moonknight » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:32 am

Barbarians consistently get selected 24% of the time right now, which means they are too powerful.

Adjustments are needed, maybe start off with 1 or more of these:

A. Lowering the starting intelligence to 80 (or maybe even 70).

B. Strength increases by 5 instead of 7.

C. Increase cost for 4th HP and 5th HP.

D. Not allow the Barbarian use any items except hand weapons.

E. Remove flying ability (or maybe even walking on water).
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby KGB » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:27 pm

Moonknight,

Where are you seeing this 24% stat?

I think 24% is actually quite reasonable and shows he's not over powered at all. Here's why:

There are 7 total heroes and if they were chosen equally it would be roughly 14.5% chance each . Now lets look at them.

1) Horselord - Can only be chosen as 1st hero on maps with lots of open territory. That's maybe 20% of the maps and probably less. So I'd expect to see him chosen 1st less than 10% of the time overall but probably over 30% of the time on maps like The Waste/Battlefield etc.
2) DK - Can never be chosen 1st due to being the worst L1 hero of all. Any reason you give for to choosing him 1st, I can show a better hero that can provide everything he does. The DK is purely a hero that gets taken mid/late game when he can start at -6 or -9 chaos and increase that.

So we are down to 5 legitimate starting heroes and about 95% (removing 5% for the HL being first). On average that's about 19% for each one.

3) Ranger - Gets chosen first if there are a LOT of L1 ruins to search or the map is covered in forest/swamp. To take her you need a large distance between players because she can't win any hero battles early on and so she can easily be killed if you encounter the enemy before turn 10-15. Thus she is limited to team games, 100x or larger maps etc.
4) Valkrie - Highly specialized attack hero. Excellent for expansion against maps with stronger neutrals due to her larger bonus. Also useful on 50x maps where you might win a game on turn 8-10 with a hero battle and her +10 attack bonus.
5) Paladin - An average hero for expansion, ruin searching etc. Gives a bit of everything and most importantly protects your hero stack in all situations. However the +10 bonus cap makes him a poor choice if the game is going to reach mid/late level (100x or larger maps). He should be taken about 5% of the time but I see him a lot more than that. Increasing his max bonus to +13 would go a long way to making him viable as a 1st hero.

So we are down to the top 2 choices. The Barb and Assassin.

I'm not going to discuss why you take these guys since it's been discussed before in this and other threads. The reason the Barb gets taken 1st is because he has no mid/late game value. Absolutely none. Yes, a 75/5 unit is sweet but it's easy to kill with Ambush and he provides zero useful stack skills. So if you aren't able to justify taking the Barb 1st, he'll never get used.

The only adjustment I'd recommend is one I'd recommend for all the heroes. Changing how early you get access to water walk/fly. Right now a L3 hero can fly. That's too early. It should be at least L5. I'd prefer to not allow selection of Waterwalk until L3 and Fly at L5 (note I don't want them to cost 2 points. I just want a level restriction placed on selecting them).

KGB
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby Moonknight » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:19 am

I've been stalking everyone's games and keeping a tally :geek:

no, no, under the 'Community' curse-over, there's an option of 'Statistics', which shows the percentage of heroes being taken, along with units. The Paladin is still second with 14% (which might still be benefiting from noobies).

I 100% agree with your delay on 'Walk on Water'...

Still waiting for that skill tree!
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby tabanli » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:23 pm

Every think discussed here will always depend on the map. Since I play mostly 8 Kingdoms, Battlefield and Tundra I can't care less if heroes fly or not. But I agree with KGB that if you take out his strength, Barbarian has nothing.

KGB wrote:DK Can never be chosen 1st due to being the worst L1 hero of all. Any reason you give for to choosing him 1st, I can show a better hero that can provide everything he does. The DK is purely a hero that gets taken mid/late game when he can start at -6 or -9 chaos and increase that.
KGB


I would like to add an exception on the map "waste". Be cause of the desert map, you really need a few units and everything else can be plundered. And DK gets %70 plunder at level 2, it is pretty high.

I watched a game Razz won on the map waste one on one. He started with DK and keeps plundering and buying scorpions instead. I think it is a viable strategy on this map be cause there are still plenty of room for your second hero HL to reach L4 for 25 leadership. Your goal is to get HL-Sandworm-Scorpions running, add an elephant if possible. Meanwhile your DK keeps plundering and growing for the late game. I adopted the strategy in one game and I think it works.

You can start with a HL and occupy the cities with Giants, Wolf Rider, Heavy Cavalry production and go for a HL-Sandworm-6 meat unit. That is also a viable strategy.

You may start with a Barbarian and send your Barbarian-Sandworm combo directly to your enemy after L3-L4. That should work too.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby Versace » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:45 am

My favourite first hero is still the assassin.

Use the starting units to keep him alive until the first upgrade.

1st upgrade personal ambush to 60%, making him 68% ambusher. He still needs a little cannon fodder help but not too much.

2nd upgrade, personal ambush to 80%, making him 88% and plus 2 move. Can occupy any neutral with one defender alone now.

3rd upgrade, move plus 4

He is now running around at 21 move points and with the 88% ambush he is over the 90% threshold to win against almost any single unit. The best neutral occupier in the game. If you don't appreciate speed, you can already take group ambush now and not waste any points either.

After that start taking the group ambush. Him running around so fast capturing neutrals he can get lots of experience to add up to group ambush making him the most powerful hero in the late game also.

Should there be an early encounter with a barbarian, the assassin wins that too. Try to have some cavalry, scouts, crows, eagly with him so that you are not screwed against something like a barbarian + scout. Sometimes you also need to sacrifice a cheap unit when attacking something like a wolfrider or a green dragon in a city.

The +60 personal ambush only costs 15 points, well worth it. 5p for 2 move is better than most heroes get and that is a very good investment from early game to the end game.
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Re: My Final Verdict on Barbarian as the First Hero

Postby tabanli » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:00 pm

That strategy only works for large maps with one defender at neutral cities and it works quiet well. Maps like European theatre where the power units are like cheese snacks for L3-L4 assasin. Or maybe 8 Kingdom where L6,L7 Assasin helps you get the center later on. But you can't seriously adopt it for the maps like 4 Lords, Battlefield where there are multiple defenders in the cities. Or small maps like central Sahara where by the time you get L4 assasin, all the neutrals are captured and have multiple defenders inside. It could work 2 by 2 or 3 by 3 team games for the maps like west illuria. There are plenty of neutral cities and gold sites and many people have solo riding Barbarians.

On the other hand, I always get the Assasin if the hero offer comes with a medusa or a ghost. It just seems natural. You can easily get the medusa to 89 ambush. Medusa slows you down and ghost slows you down on the roads but if the medusa gets unlucky on the battle, you will loose just a unit not the hero.
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