Kiev's soldiers are surrendering

[Igor]

Over 400 Ukrainian troops crossed the border into Russia for refuge. They are tired to fight against the people.
Photo, video: http://rt.com/news/177740-ukrainian-mil ... ia-refuge/

[piranha]

RT.com is just saying what Putin wants them to say.
If you base your view of whats going on by Russian media you are only reading what Putin wants you to read, not what actually going on.

There are some Russian blogs that hide behind TOR: https://www.torproject.org/ to protect themselves from Putin who try to tell the truth.
There is a offer of 3.9m roubles from Putin for cracking TOR so he can control them as well: http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-28526021

Perhaps those blogs can be more reliable source of information in Russia.

[Solo]

Living here I could say this time it is true about more then 400 Ukrainian soldiers who moved to Russia to self themselves. Ukrainian government left them to die heroically. But head of this troop decided to save life for his soldiers and go to Russia. He said he is not a traitor as Ukraine is not in war wit Russia (officially) so there are no some thing wrong to went from danger to Russia. Most of soldiers want to go back in Ukraine, but they do not continue take part in the war.

In common seeing things with my eyes I could say strange thing:
Most of independent newsmakers in Russia say lesser true information then totalitarian Putin's RT.
What takes news of civil life and humans rights, independent newsmakers often write truth and I read them to get all information.
But after the nazi revolution in Kiev I was surprised when Russian not Putin's media became write evident lie.

For example, 95% of Donbass population support insurgents and most of insurgents are local inhabitans. It is truth. I know it being there, seeing it my own eyes and taking information from big quantity of local inhabitans including my brother and my friends. Also there are many people that had to leave their home (as nazis destructed their towns where they lived and plants where they worked) and go to Kharkov as refugees. I speak with these men and get information about real state. Most of these people live in poverty now and they damn Poroshenko and Yatsenuk government for their misery.

Do you get this true information from your local nespaper and TV?

[Igor]

Russian media differently show events connected with inner policy and foreign policy.

When it's told about inner policy, I prefer to read more criticism in CNN based and EU based media, and Russian media too, of course, but may be 40-50% of all total volume of information I get.
I think Russian government shows the situation inside Russia a little better than it is, thus I need to add something other to see all.

Farther, when it's told about foreign Russian policy, there is only one target for Putin - to stop all wars on the planet or to make them weaker like in Syria. I know that Russian thoughts about situation in the world are the peaceful thoughts.
But even knowing this, I try don't trust any politicians, doesn't matter he is even Putin, Obama or somebody else. I try to watch and read not opinions but facts.

There are two kinds of information:
1. Facts. Exact material which can be checked. For example, the passing of Ukrainian soldiers into Russia is proved by OSCE watchers who are based on the border between Russia and Ukraine.
2. Opinions. No exact information, only suppositions which can't be checked. You can either trust it or not.
I'm interested firstly in facts, doesn't matter what the sourse: Russian media, or CNN (USA), or EU, or many independent sources.
But I would put light on the interesting moment: to say that facts exist don't mean to show the facts. That's what US media or US government's "speaking head"usually do: they say that they have some facts but they don't show them and even don't call exactly what kind of facts they have. Probably they have nothing but say the other. Or US government take something from social networks.

When I watch Russian media I see mostly facts.
But when I watch what is published in US media or EU media I see that there is no facts. But a lot of naked opinions. Charges without evidences. That is what can be called with the word "propaganda".

Thus if US and EU media give propaganda to users, Russian media give facts.

[Igor]

I think Piranha that your model of understanding of situation is wrongly based on tons of propagandistic material. You don't see facts and when you see them you don't believe them. But you always trust your local media which copy the US' sight point, doesn't matter that your media contains only suppositions. You are accustomed to it, it's comfortable for your mind and you don't wish to see something that can break your such comfort. Right?
If it is so, I wish you change your sight even though a little.

[piranha]

Propaganda is something you find in countries where you don't have free press, North Korea being the extreme example but both Russia and China threaten and put people in jail for expressing their opinion. That's why you need propaganda and sheltering the population from the truth and those who try to speak their mind and who oppose the government must use tools to remain anonymous.
I've only read what reporters on location in Ukraine report though images and interviews with the different sides. There is no opinion in the reporting just showing what's found. Our media and public opinion is quite sceptical to a lot what the US is doing.
Looking at history up until this day I wonder how anyone can think that the US or Russia are countries working for peace.
They care about their own country and population. To me thats just selfish, not peaceful.

[Igor]

both Russia and China threaten and put people in jail for expressing their opinion

Any examples? (with links)

I've only read what reporters on location in Ukraine report though images and interviews with the different sides. There is no opinion in the reporting just showing what's found.

Could you post here some important facts from this "reports" with the links in English?

Our media and public opinion is quite sceptical to a lot what the US is doing.

Really? Any examples of skepticism?

Looking at history up until this day I wonder how anyone can think that the US or Russia are countries working for peace.
They care about their own country and population. To me thats just selfish, not peaceful.

True for USA. But any facts for Russia? (unlike the USSR)
Last example for peaceful acting of Russia: to stop US and France from aggression in Syria.

[Igor]

Second time Piranha has escaped from direct questions. It's becoming a sad tradition.
Things which US propaganda shows as "truth" contain no evidences.

[Solo]

Propaganda is something you find in countries where you don't have free press,

What is free press?

Firstly it is one that is not controlled by the country state.
Also I think it is press that is not controlled by money.
Could you please show me some popular press, that does not belongs to some media imperia?

For example, in Ukraine we have no free press at all.
Here we have 9 oligarchic clans, like clan of Poroshenko, clan of Kolomoyskiy, clan of Firtash, clan of Akhmenov, etc.
(Earlier there was one more clan - clan of Yanukovich, now his property is divided among these 9 clans)
These 9 clans own almost all Ukraine. And left small part belongs to other 99.9% of people of my country.

All press belongs to these 9 oligarchic clans. All newspapers, radio, TV, etc.
All these press write the same about civil war in Ukraine. They support nazi army.
You will not find anti-nazi materials in ukrainian press.
Could we name this press free?

We have free information only in internet where some independent press does exist.

And, could you show me popular press in your country that write truth about our civil war and name nazi army as nazi?

[Igor]

Ukrainian army soldiers do not see any point in continuing the war. Ukrainian military again flee to Russia.
Another 17 Ukrainian military couldn't fight when there is no ammunition and a clear understanding of whether the general support. Being surrounded they moved to Russia in the Rostov region, and the weapons left in Ukraine.

Their platoon was surrounded. Soldiers were left without food, water and weapons. The only chance to survive was to go to Russia. All 17 fighters who crossed the border intend to return home, despite the fact that they were in the Ukraine could face charges of desertion and treason. In the near future for the safe passage officers and soldiers will go back.
Russian soldiers told reporters that in the ranks of the Ukrainian security services, many soldiers did not understand the meaning of this war, all tired and want to go home to their families. The Internet got a telephone conversation of a soldier with his command, which clearly illustrates the general mood. If before many soldiers lured to war hryvnia, now money is not enough of an incentive.
The spirit of the Ukrainian army falls lower, the successful fight militias. Position of security forces was smashed near Snezhnoe city in the Donetsk region. Destroyed a lot of armor. In Lugansk, near the airport, fighters of the Lugansk Republic defeated a column of elite unit - 95 Airmobile Brigade. Security officials tried to block the road, which connects the Lugansk with Russia, but were ambushed. Each attack militias - a blow to the morale of the Ukrainian army.
Waiting for another Ukrainian troops will surrender.

Video (in Russian): http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1897738&cid=9