Sorceress Max Strength

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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby smursh » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:10 pm

since the issue is really just how to make the sorceress not be a gamebreaker why not increase some of her ability costs? Instead of gaining 4 moves per 5 points, reduce to say 3 or even 2 per 5. Reduce rate of UL gain from 5 pnts every 2 ability points to 4 per 2 ability points. Could also increase cost for flying or water walking to 2 ability points, similar to what was done on assassin and barb to prevent them becoming a game breaker due to ability to take neutrals too fast and flying over obstacles.
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby Vicotnic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:45 pm

It could be done but one would have to be careful to not kill her theme and useability. Maybe she would be fine with 3 movement for 5pt and 4 ul for 2. It would be cool if levitate would be more of a thing, 15 points to fly at the cost of 8 or 30 to fly at a cost of 6, I don't think I even seen it being used.
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby slanmaster » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:54 pm

Yes i see we're talking mainly about sorceress and not about ruin xp, but I think its strongly connected.

The way i see it, the sorceress' overpoweredness starts once she hits the treshold of being able to search lvl 2 ruins. This should start around level 3-5 depending on sages/items found and UL on your armies. Then she tends to explode with experience from lvl 2 and 3 ruins and can quickly reach level 10 and higher (+collecting a ton of strong artefacts).
Few other heroes than sorceress ever make it past level 5 in my games. You have a riskier life as a hero on the frontline. But I think that if you compare the strength/usefulness of different heroes at same levels they come out quite balanced.
For example, I wouldnt say that a level 5 sorceress with 32 move and 40 battle is that much more useful than a level 5 Dread knight (9 chaos) or a level 5 paladin (11 leadership), its all situational. The problem is getting your dread to level 5 takes a lot more time and risk than for your sorceress.
Paladin and ranger can sometimes make it to high levels, but in those cases, hunting ruins are almost always part of it.

If you would reduce her move gain to 3/5p or UL to 4/2 that process would be slowed down a bit- so maybe its a good solution. But eventually (and sooner than later considering the quick xp gain post lvl5) she will be just as strong, unless you also cap her max speed, which would kill some of her flavor as Vicotnic pointed out.
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby Oberon » Sun May 20, 2018 6:08 am

Ive only been playing Warbarons for a year, and in my 60-something games (mostly on big FFA maps) the sorceress has never been a gamebreaker.

Of course, on some maps she can be very useful and level up very fast, and with some great items she can be a force to reckon with.

But I have never experienced a player winning solely by using a Sorceress. Well, yes, on some small 1vs1 maps I have, but in games that lasts for 50+ turns with 50+ cities and so on, there are just too many players, tactical options and of course randomness, for the Sorceress to be the obvious choice on every map.

I think playing long games on big maps is a totally diffrent games than playing short games on small maps.

Is this really a problem? I do admit Im not that experienced but I just havnt found the sorceress to be a game breaker. Shes definetly a game changer! Finding the right item at the right time at the right place, or filling the coffins with much needed 2000 gold, or raiding weak enemy cities behind and plunder that dreaded unicorn production or whatever.

But, if the fighting doesnt go your way, say your paladin gets slayed or your beloved horse lord that controls the plains, a sorceress cant fill their shoes.

If you let a single sorceress roam freely behind your lines razing your cities, you need to rethink your tactic... :)

Granted, on some maps its ridicilous. But bad map design is a diffrent topic, and its easy to not play those :)
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby KGB » Sun May 20, 2018 6:32 pm

Oberon,

What kind of games are you playing on those large FFA maps? Are they 1v1, team games or just FFA games? I agree that large FFA games rarely feature a Sorceress as the first or early hero. But 1v1 and team games on large FFA maps most certainly do (unless you are on a map like The Waste with no water) because I've seen it in almost every game because of the fact she opens ruins so fast and can spread around team money / capture so many cities.

I'd be curious to know in the current tournament (a 1v1 map) how many players *didn't* take a Sorceress on turn 1. I know I took her in all 3 of my games and based on what I saw it looked like my opponents did too. That kind of use makes the game stale.

The more I've seen her used lately the more I think just a minor adjustment is needed. Lower her initial UL from 10 to 8 making searching L1 ruins in a solo effort a bit riskier. Then lower her max UL from 30 to 23 so she can still search L2 ruins on her own but will need help or a lot of items to do L3 ruins (the ones that really break a game open with gold, items, allies).

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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby Oberon » Mon May 21, 2018 4:13 pm

KGB wrote:Oberon,

What kind of games are you playing on those large FFA maps? Are they 1v1, team games or just FFA games? I agree that large FFA games rarely feature a Sorceress as the first or early hero. But 1v1 and team games on large FFA maps most certainly do (unless you are on a map like The Waste with no water) because I've seen it in almost every game because of the fact she opens ruins so fast and can spread around team money / capture so many cities.


Mainly large FFA games. I dont like small 1v1 maps. Theres less room for strategy. In my opinion :)

KGB wrote:The more I've seen her used lately the more I think just a minor adjustment is needed. Lower her initial UL from 10 to 8 making searching L1 ruins in a solo effort a bit riskier. Then lower her max UL from 30 to 23 so she can still search L2 ruins on her own but will need help or a lot of items to do L3 ruins (the ones that really break a game open with gold, items, allies).

KGB


Could work, but probably should cap out paladin as well, and give paladin more options on higher level. Ive had lots of paladins that cant even use the xp... :)
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby smursh » Fri May 25, 2018 11:27 pm

last season i took 2nd in ffa ladder mainly due to taking sorceress as first hero in 4 player FFA games on mid-large maps. All you need is 1 combat artifact and the sorceress becomes not just a ruin hunter but can take numerous lightly defended neutrals and income buildings. This accelerates her leveling and makes the advantage that much more, I totally disagree sorceress is not a game breaker on large maps since I have used her to get a substantial city advantage over and over in games.
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby Seraad » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:07 am

I don't think Sorceress is that much a problem. I don't take her as a first choice most of the time. But the reason for this is that I usually play FFA games, where any wandering hero would be killed sooner or later. So taking her is a big risk. At a cost of initial underdevelopment.
But indeed she is a problem on 1vs1 maps greatly increasing the randomness (luck) in game.

I would not decrease ruin points though. I think the best way to level her is to decrease her movement.
-2 initial, +3 per 5 points, BUT get her +1 viewing range instead
-2 initial, +2 per 5 points, BUT get her +2 viewing range instead
I think the second option is better - that would reduce her snowballing ability quite a bit, but give her very interesting "medium" ability. Also reducing initial intelligence from 120 to 115 might be ok.

I also agree that some heroes might be redesigned a bit - especially palladin as he runs out of developing possibilities and becomes useless in endgame. He might have +1 hit point for 25p, or 55 strength for 20p, or additional +2 leadership for 20-25p and yet another +2 for 30-35p Whatever...
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby smursh » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:29 pm

Pali usually gets a boost late game from artifacts. Because he is so general purpose most artifacts add to his strengths while the 33 max ul means he can hit lvl-3 without adds, only class besides sorceress that doesn't need help to hit those so I find him useful late game, especially paired with DK. Would not mind seeing valk get something more though. She runs out of things very early, and as a poor ruin hunter usually has few artifacts to boost her end game.
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Re: Sorceress Max Strength

Postby fantastory » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:02 pm

I also think that it is ruins that it is breaking here.
Especially sage. Maybe it shall give xp instead of points?
Maybe 700 xp on first level ruin?

Also would be nice possibility to select if someone wants gold instead of items.
Consider you get +3 defense helmet in your first ruin, and in second you get +3 defense shield.

Sage giving xp would remove some hero uniqueness. So maybe it can add some non breaking abiilities:
+1 strength
+5 ambush
+2 antiair
+1 group antiair
+1 group ambush
+2 group ward
Heroes could get those random abilities on leveling also :)
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