Speed Ladder

[KGB]

Piranha,

I was reading about the speed ladder games and I have some questions or rather concerns. At 3 minutes the turn time is exceptionally short. You are really at the mercy of your internet connection and the speed of your browser when running the game (ie a fast CPU will be a huge advantage over a slower one when processing all the java script).

On top of that will be the problem that the larger your empire the harder it will be to complete a turn because you just literally can't get to your men fast enough to move them. I know from playing DLR online with 3 minute turns that unless the game is extremely streamlined (ie a move-all button to auto move all units with long paths set on prior turns, an auto-defend mode that puts units in cities in defend mode so you don't have to cycle through them with the next move button) that there is just no way to move more than 4-5 stacks in a turn. Based on playing 50+ games in Beta2 I honestly think you'll need at least 10 minutes a turn in speed mode to even have a hope of moving enough units in turns 1-10 and then add a couple of minutes in turns 10-20 and a couple more in turns 20-30. That's based on me using a fairly good computer/internet connection/large screen resolution with a mouse and not on a smaller/slower laptop without a mouse (I tried a couple turns on one at a friends and it took me double the time it does on my regular computer).

Also, when you say you will be able to start Beta3 games shortly does that mean Beta3 is almost ready or almost ready for you to test then later we'll get it? I only ask because with the map editor not complete yet there can't be any maps made and I wanted to do the BullRun map again with the new editor so it was ready for release when Beta3 was.

KGB

[SnotlinG]

Just a short reply, ill let piranha reply on the speedladder-stuff. But the mapeditor is almost complete, just some small finetuning left now. However i dont want to start the map-creations just yet as the map generated by the mapeditor is used in the initgame-process, so depending on how that goes i might have to update mapeditor data/structure, ie making all maps invalid.

[KGB]

SnotlinG,

Thanks for the update on the editor.

Once it's complete and you are happy with the init-game process, drop me an email and I'll test it out by creating the bullrun map again and give you some feedback before you turn it over to everyone.

KGB

[piranha]

About the speed time. I think we will test some before we lock the times but I picked those times from playing Heroes 3 with time limits. Perhaps more time will be required in this game, but the idea is to have players hurry with their turns to get the game pace moving fast.

I know that it might take about 30 sec to discover that its your turn, and that loading and computer speed will have impact.

We will just have to try it, but I see this mode for players who can look around at their empire while the other player is making his turn so when its your turn you just do what you need to do as quickly as possible.

We can add different options for turn time too .

[KGB]

Piranha,

But will players be allowed to do things such as set movement paths, vectoring, production when it's not their turn? They should be allowed to do such things in order to speed up their own turns so that all they have to do is move units.

Also I've noticed that just viewing the battle reports / having a battle can take 30 seconds or more depending on the server load + your own PC speed + browser used. So even viewing or having 1-2 battles uses a large chunk of your turn time. I'd suggest that battle screen + viewing battle report screen stops the timer so players aren't penalized for something they can't control.

I realize you are offering this for players who want to have a quasi 'real time' game with friends where both players are logged on at the same time. But I am not sure how well this will work in practice due to the limited times (2:30-5:30, is that EST, GMT time etc) this can be used and how most players don't know anyone personally in order to have them be online for that much time.

KGB

[KGB]

One more thing

I noted that you mentioned that in ladder play you'll be able to see less information on you enemy. By that I assume you mean the combat bonus's. Anything else?

Something you *absolutely* should do is in regular games you should show the correct combat bonus's for both sides on the combat screen. I can't count the number of times players have been confused by what they see thinking they are getting hosed when in fact they don't realize that the combat numbers for the enemy are without bonus's. Also many players can't calculate the bonus's correctly for themselves or their opponents.

So I suggest in standard games you show the final numbers for each unit. Also above each stack show all the stack bonus's in play (hero/positive stack modifiers/walls/enemy negative stack modifiers) for both sides. DLR did this and it didn't cause any negative effects in terms of strategy and in fact most players really needed those numbers to understand what was going on due to the complex bonus system. I'm attaching a screen shot of the DLR combat screen between 2 heroes so you can see what I mean in terms of the bonus's. The number at the top in gray represents the final stack modifier. Below that are the individual bonus's. The white numbers represent positive bonus's that go in order of Hero/Stack/City Walls. Under each positive bonus in red is the corresponding negative bonus (Here that would be Archon's cancel, Devils's Cancel + Medusa -1, Siege unit).

This game is getting more complex all the time and I think you need something similar.

KGB

[piranha]

Yes the idea is that you will be able to spend an evening playing this game and make a lot of turns instead of just one turn here and there.
I't not time zone based. Its just 4 hours of speed mode regardless where you are. Most of the time it will probably be people in nearby time zones that play this mode with each other.
This mode will require that there is someone else who feel like playing for a few hours when you want to so the bigger the community gets the easier it will be to get a game like this going.

I played master of orion 2 online and people would get games going even when you have to sit through the whole game in one sitting most of the time. Seems people can take the time if they find something they enjoy .

I agree every optimization that can be done to make the game go faster and make the waiting for other players useful is worth working on. Something that is good about warlords compared to heroes or master of orion which I played a lot of multiplayer in is that battles are much faster here.
Simultanous turns is something worth checking out too.

About showing different information. I think its a good idea to show all info in normal game mode.
The only thing that needs to be keept secret in ladder is the hero stats. I was thinking about making the stats and graphs unavailable in ladder, but I'm not sure about that.

[piranha]

About displaying various stats, should the full stats not be listed for the enemy side in ladder?
If that is the case then the battle rolls should not be shown either or the result will be there anyway even if it require a bit of calculation.

I think most people want to be able to look at what happened if they expected a different result.

[KGB]

Piranha,

If it was up to me I'd show full battle stats in all games, ladder or not. I just don't think the game gains anything by hiding those numbers.

In fact I was thinking that since you added the code to do the 1000 simulations that after the combat finishes you could post the theoretical winning % score for each side so players would get an even better idea of why a battle went one way or another.

KGB

[Zajoman]

I, too, am definitely for what KGB says - full combat information on everything in all games, regardless of type. And the simulation winning percentage is a good idea, too. As for the time limited turns, I like it. I'd love to play a 1v1 in that mode here and there. Still, I think the majority of games will be played in the long turn mode as it proved to be very good compared to pseudo real time. Being able to set vectors and productions during other players' turn would definitely help, too.