City Bonus for ruins?

[LPhillips]

So, I saw an enemy park his valkeria+horse lord on ruins. Obvious moment to strike, so I killed the stack.

Surprise though, his minotaurs and spiders have City bonus...? What wizardry is this?

My manly hero slew the last spider, the crusader, and the two heroes himself without even a scratch. Talk about beastmode. However, his escort is all gone and a battle that should have been 85% in my favor was 70% against me. Why do units get city bonus for ruins? Much less searched/broken ruins?

[Maze]

I saw this here and there on the forum already: city bonus is applied in cities, ruins and gard tower (not look-out tower). Must have to do something with spiders, Minotaurs and Gryphon feeling comfortable with walls around them, regardless whether it's a civilized building or just a tower or even a ruin. And a look-out tower should be considered not more nor less than a high wooden construction hardly exceeding the definition of a ladder.

[LPhillips]

In that case, shouldn't razed city tile also give a bonus?

I understand guard towers. They're purpose-built fortifications, just like castles are. But I don't understand ruin/temple/razed city as a candidate for "city" bonus. It seems a bit off.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I have complained about this before for a LONG time now.

It makes ZERO sense that *searched* ruins would give any bonus. After all your hero has literally razed it to the ground to destroy the undead and obtain the reward. Not only that but NO ONE would ever leave a fortification (ruin) just lying there outside their city for an enemy to use when their own walls may offer ZERO protection (L2 or less).

Now unsearched ruins I can see offering a bonus. However I would not make it a city bonus. As I also asked for a long time ago, ruins and razed cities should be a special terrain that Undead get a combat bonus on. Currently that would only be the Ghost but in the future could be other undead units added to the game.

KGB

[Maze]

Lphillips,
In fact razed cities give city bonus as well.

Giving undead units some bonus in both (searched) ruins and razed cities sounds logical indeed.

[LPhillips]

KGB and I both agreed previously that razed/ruined sites could offer evil/undead units a small bonus. Just as temples should then not offer them a defensive bonus.

However, I don't see a problem with the +5 bonus given by sites. It seems like an interesting tactical option for players. Granted, it doesn't make much sense outside of simple game mechanics, but the only point I want to make here is the utility of these features as game mechanics. It is basically an unupgradable tower with no sight bonus. Using it as "City" terrain is just absurd. No one should be able to camp out for free near enemy cities and gain massive bonuses from razed structures. Terrain bonuses are different, because they help in transit but not in city combat. Units with a city bonus are only balanced/acceptable because they are vulnerable in transit between cities. Giving them a free city terrain boost in transit (and a place to hide and strike from) is unacceptable in terms of game balance.

I'd even go a step further and state that Guard Towers should not offer a city bonus. In terms of game mechanics, it equates to the same thing, but even worse. You can march spiders and an elephant across Open terrain with an infantry unit, and build a tower when it's not your turn. That is basically a mobile city PLUS THE NATIVE TERRAIN BONUS TO YOUR ELEPHANT. The +defense bonus is the intended benefit of the tower, not a +20 bonus to your city units while in transit. It's a gamebreaker.

[Chazar]

I'd even go a step further and state that Guard Towers should not offer a city bonus. In terms of game mechanics, it equates to the same thing, but even worse. You can march spiders and an elephant across Open terrain with an infantry unit, and build a tower when it's not your turn. That is basically a mobile city PLUS THE NATIVE TERRAIN BONUS TO YOUR ELEPHANT. The +defense bonus is the intended benefit of the tower, not a +20 bonus to your city units while in transit. It's a gamebreaker.

According to the apparently outdated warpedia, guard towers have the surrounding terrain as battle terrain. Are you saying that guard towers give City terrain AND the surrounding terrain for bonus calculations?

I agree, the city bonus is useful enough already, no need to apply it to guard towers, which in my humble opinion should have the surrounding terrain as battle ground.

[piranha]

Guard towers don't get city bonus. They are considered the same terrain as they are standing on.

[Moonknight]

I don't think razed ruins nor unrazed ruins should provide a city bonus. If a ruin is unrazed, that means you haven't gone inside of it, which means you're just guarding the front entrance of the ruin.

If anything, it should follow the terrain it sits on.

[KGB]

Just imagine how Shipwreck ruins are now working. They are providing 'city' bonus's in the middle of the water

It would be best if Ruins offered no city bonus. Then let them provide a +5 bonus to undead (and potentially evil) units.

KGB