Venom

[magian]

There seem to be more and more 3 hit monsters roaming the battlefield these days, and we should probably have a unit that counters this growing threat. I can think of a few possibilities........

A) Deathstrike: this one is simple, if a unit with deathstrike wounds an enemy unit, the wounded unit is killed (regardless of how many wounds it has). This seems quite powerful, so it might be better to give deathstrike a % chance of triggering (death strike 5 could have a 50% chance of killing a wounded enemy).

B) Poison: a bit like deathstrike, but instead of killing the wounded enemy, poison would halve the wounded enemy's strength (including bonuses). The strength reducing effect could last for the rest of the battle, or it could last until the start of the poisoning player's next turn.

C) Venom : much like the previous poison ability, but instead of halving a wounded enemy's strength, venom reduces the strength by a preset amount (a unit with venom 5 would reduce a wounded unit's strength by 5). If a unit's strength is reduced to below 5 by venom, it is killed.

I think I prefer poison/venom, mostly because deathstrike steps on ambush's toes a bit.

The spider is an obvious choice to receive deathstrike/poison/venom. But a demon with deathstrike could work. As could a serpent (and possibly medusa, scorpion, and green dragon) with poison/venom.

[KGB]

Magican,

As you noted, Deathstrike is basically Ambush. There is no need for another such ability.

I suggested the Poison concept for Beta4 when the Scorpion was being created (another good fit like the Spider). My idea was to use the DLR poison concept rather than a in-combat poison ability that requires getting a hit (something that a spider might have trouble doing against a strong enemy). The poison would reduce an enemies strength by 10 and last for 2 turns so that you'd have 2 turns to finish off weakened stacks/cities. Each unit with poison would have X percentage chance of poisoning all enemies so the unit need not be in actual battle.

But yeah, a poison skill of some kind would be a good addition to the game.

KGB

[magian]

The DLR version of poison worked, but it always struck me as odd that spiders and scorpions poisoned from a distance before battle. It was a better model for a big cloud of poison gas.

Perhaps it would be better to work poison a bit like ambush. When facing a spider in combat, an enemy unit has a chance of being poisoned. This opens up the possibility for a unit with a poison stack bonus (which could represent a cloud of gas).

I do like the idea of poison having a lingering effect though, adds another dimension to the game.

[Moonknight]

I think I second the Poison/Venom type of concept that KGB discussed for beta 4 as well. Could fix the cost issues of the Spider and help the Scorpion and Sea Serpent be more useful.

I would suggest an in-battle power of reducing opponent units 1HP at the beginning of battle before anything else happens. Maybe a 5% chance on each unit.

[kenc80]

I would think that angelic units (pegasi, archon, grand archon) should be immune to poison along with maybe elves or something.

[LichKing]

I'd like poison (or disease) to be something like: for example spider vs mammoth (3HP): on first hit, -5 strength, on second hit death (so a poisonous creature could kill a 3HP unit in 2 hits, if it can land 2 hits to the same creature). Even better would be if the strength loss were permanent, and the lost HPs couldn't be recovered. If lost HPs are recovered between battles and the strength loss is permanent, it could be poisoned in another fight and lose more strength.

[kenc80]

I think -5 permanent strength loss is pretty harsh dont you think? thats pretty devastating! especially in siege situations or something. I would think temples (STR or Move) would be able to cure it, right?

[LichKing]

I think -5 permanent strength loss is pretty harsh dont you think? thats pretty devastating! especially in siege situations or something. I would think temples (STR or Move) would be able to cure it, right?

Sure, why not. Archons and high-level paladins could also have some healing powers. Btw -5 STR wouldn't be too much invalidating, I think. It wouldn't even happen very often that a unit hit by a spider in a town battle survives, at most 1 x battle I guess.

[KGB]

Magican,

Only using poison when you are in combat makes it a very weak power. If you have to hit to give the enemy -5 strength it's actually better if you just had the Spider have +5 strength since they would always get that +5 while you need to hit to weaken the enemy. With only 2 hits anyway before a unit dies, what's the point? Overall it would be a very weak power if it can't affect the entire stack from the back of the fight like DLR. That's why the DLR model works better because the poison skill has actual value.

LichKing,

As you guessed, DLR used disease to remove hits like poison removes strength. But in actual combat it had another power called Trample (or more aptly named, Crushing Blow) which was given to really strong units like Iron Golems that allowed them to do 2 or 3 damage per hit instead of just 1.

Losses due to poison/disease were permanent until cured (visit a bless site or from a spell). That puts a lot on map makers to have access to bless sites. I'd prefer to go with another model of gradual healing over time (just as you can recover from poison over time). Where if poison did -10 strength you got 5 of it back per turn so that for the rest of the turn units were at -10. Next turn they'd be at -5 then on the following turn they'd be back to full strength. That gets rid of the need for visiting bless sites while still allowing poison to have value (assuming it can be used from the back of the fight and not from in combat where it's fairly useless) as it weakens units for several turns.

KenC,

The only units in DLR immune to poison were poison units themselves (ie 2 spiders can't poison each other). That makes the most sense to me. Not sure any other units need to be naturally immune besides that. The game can always go with the DLR model that blessed units are also immune to poison due to the blessing (which ultimately necessitated the need for a 1 turn flying curse unit like the Crow to remove those blessings).



Also, once again this kind of power should not be used as substitute for other bonus's. By that I mean poison should only reduce the strength of a unit, NOT ITS BONUS'S. So if a Dragon/Crow fought a spider and the Crow was 17 battle strength thanks to the Morale it would be immune to being poisoned by the virtue of already being at 5 strength (unless you want to do an instant kill idea that LichKing proposed if you get reduced under 5).

KGB

[magian]

Trample ala DLR was actually more effective against 2 wound creatures than the big 3-4 wounders (well Trample 1 was, and that was the most common). Lichking's idea differs because it essentially negates large number of wounds, killing anything after 2 successful strikes.