Venom

[KGB]

Actually DLR Trample even at it's weakest form (+1) is better than LichKing's skill.

At 2 damage per hit, even a 4 hit unit is dead in 2 swings (same as LickKing). But 2 hit units are dead in 1 swing which his idea won't do.

Also, his idea is mostly a useless skill. Think about it. The only time it has value is when you are facing a 3 hit unit. How often does that happen? Also even when you do face a 3 hit unit only 1/3 times will it be useful (if the 3 hit unit already has 1 or 2 damage from fighting a prior unit you don't need his auto-kill on 2 hit to finish it off). So on average you'll face a 3 hit undamaged unit 1/3 times. It's a skill that will rarely come into play so should cost next to nothing.

KGB

[magian]

KGB,

Trample in it's 'weakest' form was quite powerful. The problem is that trample one-hit-kills most units, only 3 wound units can survive a hit. So, it is certainly not a counter to units with a high number of wounds (since it is even more effective against units with two wounds).

Was DLR's acid a pointless power? As I recall, a unit with acid had a chance to reduce the strength of each opponent it faced in battle. What I was suggesting was essentially similar to DLR's acid with an added lingering effect. Seems decent to me.

[KGB]

Magican,

Acid was a tremendous power in DLR. One of the best. But you didn't need to hit to use it. It was just a straight percentage chance like First Strike. Hence it's value even on weaker units.

The problem with needing to hit to use the skill is that you easily hit the creatures you don't need the power against and rarely hit the ones you do need the power against.

KGB

[magian]

Then how about poison working like DLR's acid. The poisonous unit has a % chance to poison each opposing unit it faces. A poisoned unit gets it's strength reduced by 10 (or halved). Even if the poisoned unit survives the battle, it is weakened for a few turns.

I realize that this lacks some of the stack softening ability of DLR's poison. However, I also think it would be a useful power (and a better model for a poisonous bite).

[LichKing]

If I understood well, you're talking about a unit that reduces opponent's STR by 10, in addition of fear/chaos. So I guess I didn't understood. I wouldn't want poison to be that powerful, I'd like it to be an ability on hit, like poison should be. If you think the version I came up with is too weak (I recognize it isn't a strong ability) it could be:

1st hit: -10 STR (if the unit reaches 0 STR dies, so a lot of 1-turn units could die in 1 hit, unless blessed/behind walls/morale/etc).
2nd hit: death (3HP units killed in 2 hits)

Poisoned units that survive the battle could have a permanent -5 STR penalty. Example:

2 spiders vs 1 LtInf, 1 HvInf, 2 green dragons (no stack bonus)

1. round: spider hits, LtInf dies in 1 hit
2. round: HvInf hits
3. round spider hits, HvInf fights now at 5 STR
4. round: spider hits, HvInf dies
5. round: spider hits, dragon fights now at 25
6. round: green dragon hits, spider dies
7. round: 2nd spider hits, green dragons (previously poisoned) dies
8. round: spider hits, dragon fights now at 25
9. round: green dragon hits
10. round: green dragon hits, spider dies. Green dragon survives the battle and has a 'poisoned' status, with permanent 5 STR penalty until cured (in a temple, for example)

Like this it would be even too powerful, maybe. There could be various degrees of poison, each degree would give 5 STR penalty in battle (always 5 after battle), so a spider could have poison 2 (10 STR penalty in battle), a scorpion poison 1 (5 STR penalty, could kill only scouts and crows with 1 hit, or units who have STR 5 in battle because of Fear/Chaos effect).

[KGB]

Magican,

If it worked like DLR's acid (a straight percentage chance to poison at start of combat with a unit) then it would have value. And I'd be fine with poison working in that manner since it means even weaker units with poison would have use against strong units.

LichKing,

When poison reduces a units strength, it should be reducing the strength, not the bonus (ie I don't want more bonus substitution problems). So if you are talking about killing units when they reach 0 strength it would not matter if 1 turn units are behind walls or have morale bonus's. If they reach a natural 0 strength they are dead. This means Scouts, Crows, Lt Infantry, Orcs, Hv Infantry etc would all die on 1 hit and I am fine with that because it would give poison some use against weak units.

Permanent poison after the battle is fine but ultimately useless. Think about your example. If you poison that Green Dragon, so what. I mean he's very very unlikely to ever get in combat again unless you have another stack right there ready to attack. Mostly he'll end up being in the very back of another stack (like Red Dragons, Archons, Devils and other nice units that you'd like to poison will be) giving out his +4 move to the stack. At some future point he might bless to get rid of the poison but I would not go out of the way to do so anymore than I do in DLR. Certainly I would not care if my bonus units got poisoned because they never fight anyway unless I've miscalculated the odds somehow. It's only the meat units (Mammoths, Elementals, Sandworms) that it would matter much because those you expect to actually fight in battle. The only way I'd care if my Red Dragon ever got poisoned is if poison permanently affected skills (as in reducing Morale, Fear, Negate powers) rather than strength.

So again, other than killing 1 turn units in 1 hit it's not that useful a skill if it only works on a hit. Especially because against a really good stack where those spiders are fighting a big uphill battle (against Fear/Chaos/Siege/Leadership/Morale) they will be such big underdogs that they may never hit any of the stronger units that you'd really like to poison. That's the problem with having skills that only work on a hit. They are also hard to balance and cost correctly compared to just a straight percentage chance to poison (as Magican and I have been discussing).

KGB

[Moonknight]

Wanted to bump this conversation up and revisit. I realize the learning curve is already high for this game, but I think there are even more elements that could make the gameplay better...

Poison/Acid: Reducing Strength of Opponents
Trample: A unit being able to do 2 HP of damage instead of 1 (something slow and big)
Medals: Provided to units for surviving low-odd battles, would increase strength per medal

[KGB]

I agree more elements to the game are needed to increase strategic options.

I think adding simple stuff that's easy for player to grasp is better to introduce first and then add more complex things later.

Examples:
1) Trample (I prefer 'Crushing Blow' so it doesn't have to be related to trampling something): 2 HP of damage is perfectly easy to grasp.
2) Medals: +1 strength to all surviving non-hero units in the attackers stack. Max +5 strength.

Another thing the game needs the ability to build better units.

City Wall Level
0 - base unit numbers
1 - +1 view
2 - +1 move
3 - +5 defense for city (current)
4 - +2 strength
5 - +1 move
6 - +10 defense for city (current)
7 - +2 strength
8 - +15 defense for city (current)
9 - production time reduced by 1 turn (upgrade cost is 400 same as going from L7 to L8 walls)

Note:
- Numbers are cumulative so a city with wall level 7 builds units with +2 move, +4 strength and +1 view.
- Production time reduced by 1 turn means a 2 turn unit is made in 1 turn, a 3 turn unit is made in 2 turns etc.

This now makes every level of wall upgrading valuable and useful to the player with the new option to go to L9 walls to get faster production. So players who end up with lots of gold and few cities have a some strategic option besides hoping for heroes/allies and map makers can design maps where cities don't have to divide perfectly equally etc. This and medals also do not require any new graphics or menus or anything else.

Better units along with medals for attacker would mean your initial starting units are stronger and better able to conquer neutrals too leading to fewer bad beats in the early turns.

KGB

[Moonknight]

I know you've suggested the wall upgrades before, and i do like it! Although, I think the -1 turn upgrade should cost more.

A Treant with crushing blow ability. How sweet would a Treant graphic be in this game!?

[KGB]

I think 400 to go from 8 to 9 is fair based on the fact your capitol starts at L7 walls. It would cost 800 gold to reach L9 walls.

That seems reasonable based on the idea that you could upgrade your Capitol for 800 to build Spiders in 1 turn. Or you could buy Spider production in another city for the same 800 gold which is equivalent to 1 turn Spider production.

It if you make it cost more than that it will never really be used other than games where there is crazy amounts of gold available.

KGB