Assassins stack

[LPhillips]

The name should say it all. Assassins stack bonuses. I'm quite sure this is not an intended feature. It's rather broken on small maps, making Ambush far too cheap. You can in effect have a very high level Assassin without having to face the xp curve. I noticed this because Solo is rolling a +50% Ambush on me right now on turn 9, having not been required to overcome the xp curve and get his hero to level 5.

[KGB]

I think it's intended. Other heroes who buy Assassination (5% for 10 points) have it stack. Plus Ghosts stack.

So not sure why/how it would not stack for the Assassin hero.

If someone is stacking Assassins they should have no other real bonus and be reasonably easy to kill using non-hero stacks.

KGB

[LPhillips]

If someone is stacking Assassins they should have no other real bonus and be reasonably easy to kill using non-hero stacks.

KGB

That's incorrect. Stacked Assassins mean that a player may employ a stack of level 1 units with a couple of ghosts by turn 6 on small maps, virtually guaranteeing victory against any opponent. I've just experienced that tactic first hand in two separate games. Assassin is the king of small maps, or any situation in which there is low production count. Any player employing any other tactic is unable to win. Granted, I was 1 square away from annihilating the Assassins before they were employed against me, but only because my opponent moved forward without his reinforcements. As long as the Assassin stack is not caught on defense by a well equipped army of superior strength units exceeding 8 in count, he can guarantee victory. And the cost of taking down such a stack is far greater than the cost of fielding it, meaning that killing the stack is not a victory.

No other hero may stack abilities. If you wish to have the abilities of a level 6 hero, then normally you must level a hero that high or find items to augment his abilities. We're discussing the employment of a level 6+ hero bonus while only having to accumulate ~50% of the normal XP requirement. The very closest equivalent would be fielding a level 4 Valkeria by stacking two level 2's. No one would find that acceptable.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Assassin is the king of small maps, or any situation in which there is low production count. Any player employing any other tactic is unable to win.

I thought the Barbarian was the king of small maps

Having multiple Assassins and Ghosts by turn 6 exceeding 50% requires a pretty unique situation. For one you need at least 3 Assassin heroes (assuming 1 is L2 and the others are L1) and 2 Ghosts. So you must have had enough money for 3 heroes and Ghost production. Then you need luck (or a really small map) so that the heroes can be grouped together when they arrive) That can't be very common on turn 6.

As long as the Assassin stack is not caught on defense by a well equipped army of superior strength units exceeding 8 in count, he can guarantee victory. And the cost of taking down such a stack is far greater than the cost of fielding it, meaning that killing the stack is not a victory.

Curious what else was in the stack at this point besides say 3 heroes and a couple of Ghosts. That alone requires about 2500 gold (1500 for 3 heroes + Ghost production) and I can't imagine there was a lot of money left to put something else good in the stack on turn 6.

No other hero may stack abilities. If you wish to have the abilities of a level 6 hero, then normally you must level a hero that high or find items to augment his abilities. We're discussing the employment of a level 6+ hero bonus while only having to accumulate ~50% of the normal XP requirement. The very closest equivalent would be fielding a level 4 Valkeria by stacking two level 2's. No one would find that acceptable.

So what's your suggestion for a change:
- 2+ Heroes with group ambush can't stack their ambush skills but 2+ units (Ghosts) can?
- Can Heroes stack their group ambush with units (Ghosts)?
- Would a Paladin that buys 10% ambush skill (L3) stack with an Assassin hero or a DK who bought 10% ambush skill?
- Do you just want to make a minor change so that group ambush on heroes doesn't stack until L2 so that a pair of L1 assassins would be 10% but a pair of L2 would be 40%?

Because here's the thing. A L2 Assassin + 3 Ghosts = 44% ambush and that's not hard to get if you start with 1 Ghost in the retinue and build Ghosts in the capitol on turn 1 you will have this on turn 7 (or earlier if you get a 2nd hero with a Ghost ally). So there is no need for multiple heroes stacking to reach high assassination skills.

Tinkering with all kinds of rules here is going to make things very confusing as to when things add and when they don't. Right now it's very straight forward and easy to understand and provides a nice checks and balances against super heroes/stacks (small maps excluded but we already know you can't balance units/skills for small, medium and large maps so at least one size map is going to have to suffer some imbalances and thus be the dominant strategy on that map type).

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB, no one mentioned stacking level 1 heroes. Obviously 10 ambush is not a big deal. I don't want to dismiss your whole discussion, but please consider the point proposed: There is an XP curve, and these heroes violate it fundamentally. We're talking about stacking primary abilities. The cost for 2 ghosts and 2 heroes is 500+(400~500)+850. So with a 1500 gold start and a level 1 ruin plunder (most maps provide this within 1-2 turns' march), you can have level 2 + level 1 + ghost for 38% ambush by turn 3. This is nothing to sneeze at. For the purpose of the example, you can forget the ghosts and focus on just 2 heroes. Let's say you run up on an enemy with 2 spiders, a light cav and a +7 Paladin in a city +5. You can annihilate them with a few 1-turn units, very high percentage of victory. Remember: this is only turn 3. The enemy suffers the loss of powerful units, while you sacrifice a few pawns. Now move up to turn 5 or 6, when your Assassins are level 2 each, or even 2 and 3. You now have a base of 40-50% ambush to work with. A single Assassin would not even be level 4 at this point. With only two slots, you've now eliminated over 50% of enemies engaged on average (remember Assassin and other cheap units have base ambush skill). Any strategy not employing Ambush as the primary facet is now defunct.

Certainly this more practical example makes my point. Small map or large, this is an absurd circumstance. If you have any reasonable expectation of early conflict, the player with stacked Assassins has guaranteed victory. I am seeing nothing but Assassin pools from some of the best players right now.

We've now come to the point where hero and unit skills overlap. A dividing line needs to be redrawn, and the primary skill Ambush needs to not stack for any heroes. We both know that the +10% group ambush on the 3 primary heroes is an artifact and not relevant to the discussion. Group move between heroes doesn't stack, and that doesn't seem to be an incredible conundrum to the community.

LP

[KGB]

LPhillips,

Just doing some quick math here on the 38% example. Assuming 2 stacks of 8 unit each, the Pally stack as you noted and the 2 Assassins + 1 Ghost + 5 10 strength Lt Inf types.

Each Assassin unit wins 38% outright. Leaves 62% to fight over. Now with the bonus's in play, I'd say each Pally unit is probably 75% likely to win it's fight with the +12 bonus (Spiders 100% likely). So 75% of 62 is .465 or 46.5%. So it seems to me this is close to a 50/50 fight between the 1 turn fodder (46% to 54%). The Spiders will be much higher and the Ghost/2 Assassins will be higher when they fight. This kind of battle should be a good contest.

Ironically the Assassin stack would probably fare better by far if the 2nd hero was a Valk with +6 bonus attacking because +6 attack is better than an extra 10% assassination.

One reason I suspect you see gobs of assassins is because their UL is 10, better than that of a Pally so they are now the best ruin searchers (along with HL but no one uses a HL). A drop in their UL to 8 might help lower the number of assassin heroes.


However if all you want to do is remove stacking of Ambush between heroes I can see a case being made for that. The code will have to take into account items though so if a Pally is wearing a +10% group ambush item and is stacked with a L1 Assassin hero the total would have to be 20% and not 10.

Ironically I think group move should stack between heroes.

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB,
Please understand that I'm not coming from a purely theoretical point here, but from a deep-seated conviction that play is boiling down to the earliest accumulation of Assassins and ghosts. I'm about to jump on board this crazy train because I don't like losing, but competitive games are becoming terribly stagnated by this. Maybe you haven't encountered it yet, but you will.

LPhillips,
The code will have to take into account items though so if a Pally is wearing a +10% group ambush item and is stacked with a L1 Assassin hero the total would have to be 20% and not 10.

Ironically I think group move should stack between heroes.

KGB

I'm glad to hear you can see a case for not stacking primary abilities, but I don't see your reasoning for this statement at all. If you want extra Ambush, you should put the items on the correct heroes. The same with Leadership or Chaos. A Dread Knight holding a +3 leadership weapon doesn't get to stack it with a Paladin's natural leadership. The highest Ambush is taken, just as with any other main ability.

Moving back to theory, I can't see where you pulled a +12 from with that xp pool. +7 is all that is possible. Also, a victory that costs as many spiders as the enemy expends level 1 units is not a victory, especially early in games or in confined conflicts. Finally, it's important to note that the stacked Assassin technique becomes more powerful with leveling (remember the xp curve!!!!). I'm going to avoid continual repetition because you have of course read and considered my statements already. Just consider the math and the mechanics of frontier battles side by side.

I'm fielding fabulous stacks of perfectly balanced units at very early points, with better positioning than my opponents, and the Assassin stacks are still dominating. There is literally no counter and no strategy of similar strength. Ask Erenroth. He just conquered over half a map with traditional heroes, set up shop in strength, and got his butt handed to him by stacks of inferior units led by several assassins. The rule now is never to be caught on defense, and to only attack when you can make the move in 1 round, no matter how good your stack is or how early it is. The quality or composition of your stacks is entirely irrelevant; the only pertinent fact is that the enemy hero will survive and yours will not.

I encourage you to intentionally gain some experience of this play style and return with your thoughts regarding it. As for me, it's leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I don't like to resort to a single cheap and stagnated tactic purely because it is the only option for victory. To me, how I win is as important to enjoyment as whether I win. I get as much enjoyment out of these stagnated contests of technical execution as I would out of consulting a chess computer for my moves.

[KGB]

LPhillips,

I have seen players using Assassin heroes. But since I don't play on the 50x maps they haven't been near as effective or powerful. At least so far I haven't had any trouble when facing them. Probably because on larger maps you accumulate more cities/armies so you can swarm any Assassin hero you see.

The +12 I mentioned was because you said the Paladin was in a +5 city with a +7 Leadership bonus. That's a +12. Or did you mean the Assassin was in the city?

I think multiple Assassin heroes not stacking is something that will help with this issue. I also think it would help if the UL for the Assassin was lowered to 8 making him a bit less effective searching ruins. Right now the UL of 10 just gives another incentive to use the Assassin.

KGB

[LPhillips]

KGB,

I don't know if the UL for the Assassin needs to be lowered or not. He's not particularly easy to level as it is. I'd be happy with removing his ability to stack main hero abilities, and then going from there. If the group Ambush bonus were capped as discussed in the other forum, then combined with this I think we'd see the problem disappear.